One of the reasons I wouldn't want to live in South Africa is the racism there however it is completely unfair to compare racist attitudes in someone who has grown up in Europe and someone who has grown up in South Africa.
* My mother was about 10 years old when she was a BBQ with my grandparents. She stayed behind with my grandfather a little while longer while my granny went back home to prepare dinner. When my grandfather and mother arrived home they saw the police and my grandmother being carried into an ambulance. Neighbours had called the police when they heard her screaming as she was gang-raped, stabbed and left for dead. * The Massacre in my mother's chuch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_James_Church_massacre) * Nicci, my friend in the first year of high school, raped in her own bed at knifepoint while her parents slept next door. * My 20 year old brother out with friends for the night draws R100 (£10) at a cashpoint. For that money he is mugged. And shot. He put his arm up and the bullet went right through it and into his face at close range. Luckily the doctors in South Africa are pretty good at dealing with gunshot wounds and after a week in a coma he opens his eyes. After several weeks the bullet lodged in his brain can be removed. He is "lucky" even with the learning difficulties, psychological problems and medical issues he will always have. * Walk into the home you grew up in with a police officer. Instead of happy memories you're confronted with the fingerprint dust and splatterings of blood from where your grandfather, the man that raised you, was axed to death.
All of these things happened at the hands of black people. Now until you have lived there for 20 years and you have dealt with these and more things happening to you and your loved ones and you have no fear and no bitterness in your heart, don't you judge. I absolutely do not condone the racism of those women and the thousands like them. I find it abhorrent too, but I know there is a lot more to it.
Hubby's family are in SA, just outside of Jo'burg and I've lost count of the attacks and awful things they have been through. Rapes, stabbings, shootings, and all at the hands of blacks. I am thankful that this hasn't actually made them bitter, or racist - they still treat everyone as equals and actually find the ingrained behaviour of some of the whites quite abhorrent. They understand why, but they don't do it. Sis in law has been held at knifepoint so many times it's crazy! Found men in her house, had her kids shot at, cousins knifed... Dreadful.
As hubby says, once you have lived there for a long time, you do see things a whole lot differently.
It was interesting though, reading it from an 'outsider's' viewpoint. :)
Such terrible experiences. How bitter and angry and sad you must feel. I think the problem for me is the fact that these crimes are committed, on the whole, by poor people, by evil people and by people who are bitter and jealous. And the colour of the skin of these people is black, because the majority of black people in SA during and post apartheid were / are poor, angry and dispossessed. As a result all black people are blamed for all the wrongs of the country by some white people, some of whom, in fact, have never suffered the way you have. There has to be a way forward and a way to end the crime and violence, and it surely cannot be by the sort of carping that I was listening to. And I still think that these problems exist everywhere in the world - stories like the church massacre happen in USA / UK etc - but some South Africans seem to think it is exclusively their country's problem. In other countries the crime and violence is not just committed by black people, because in other countries the poverty, dispossession, and addiction is more evenly spread throughout the demographics.
I don't want to live in South Africa, partly because of the crime and partly because I find South Africans quite difficult to deal with, but I'm not bitter or angry in the slightest towards black people, either in the UK or in South Africa. Millions of people all over the world have been and are going through far worse than the things I listed.
There has to be a way forward and a way to end the crime and violence, and it surely cannot be by the sort of carping that I was listening to. I agree with you 100% and I feel very lucky that I have had the benefit of education and whatever else it was that I am don't feel the way that they do. Most South Africans I know will have had family members and friends murdered or attacked and they all live in constant fear of their lives and that of their family. That fear comes out in that horrible twisted arrogance and bravado you hear.
I think it is only right and I would hope that most people would show compassion towards black people and be interested in learning about the reasons behind the actions, but then the same should happen for the whites. No-one, whatever their colour, has escaped living in that country unscarred and undamaged.
What good is a beautiful country and huge houses and an apparent amazing standard of living if you're terrified that everytime your children leave the house, that could be the last time? The reason they may resent hearing your point of view is because you can leave if you want. The next time you hear these views, why not actually delve into them with the person a little bit deeper. They are not evil people, they are just scared, trapped and have problably been through some horrific stuff and all they have experienced from the rest of the world does is comdemnation. Of course that is going to lead to defiance and the prickly defensiveness.
but some South Africans seem to think it is exclusively their country's problem South Africa has always had a problem with being isolated (politically, geographically, financially) so that people who live there do have a problem understanding that South Africa really is just another country. It has a bit of an identity crisis and is a bit like a toddler who just thinks 'Me, me, me!' all the time. It takes a while of living out of SA to get the knocked out, I think. I can remember growing up and being taught such a warped perception of what the world thought and it was a very odd experience to unlearn all of it.
Something I find really unpleasant as a South African living in the UK is how many English people will confide in me their racist views that they would never dare tell another English person. They expect me to agree though.
Anyway, excuse the long ramble. Apart from that, I hope you're having an awesome time in Cape Town! :-)
re: I can remember growing up and being taught such a warped perception of what the world thought and it was a very odd experience to unlearn all of it. And that is kind of what I am saying. It is really hard to talk in depth with the people that hold those views, because many of them have never left SA, and they haven't unlearned their 'conditioning'like you have. Most of them are of an age when they had no information about the rest of the world as they grew up. I don't blame them for being uninformed, but I still don't get why they generalise so much about the 'blacks' when they trust them with their children and houses. btw, I don't live in Cape Town, I live in Swellendam, which is an incredibly safe little rural town, and so we have not, touch wood, come across any violence or crime yet. Lots of alcoholism, though.
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timeasmymeasure
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Date: 2006-09-04 09:33 am (UTC)* My mother was about 10 years old when she was a BBQ with my grandparents. She stayed behind with my grandfather a little while longer while my granny went back home to prepare dinner. When my grandfather and mother arrived home they saw the police and my grandmother being carried into an ambulance. Neighbours had called the police when they heard her screaming as she was gang-raped, stabbed and left for dead.
* The Massacre in my mother's chuch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_James_Church_massacre)
* Nicci, my friend in the first year of high school, raped in her own bed at knifepoint while her parents slept next door.
* My 20 year old brother out with friends for the night draws R100 (£10) at a cashpoint. For that money he is mugged. And shot. He put his arm up and the bullet went right through it and into his face at close range. Luckily the doctors in South Africa are pretty good at dealing with gunshot wounds and after a week in a coma he opens his eyes. After several weeks the bullet lodged in his brain can be removed. He is "lucky" even with the learning difficulties, psychological problems and medical issues he will always have.
* Walk into the home you grew up in with a police officer. Instead of happy memories you're confronted with the fingerprint dust and splatterings of blood from where your grandfather, the man that raised you, was axed to death.
All of these things happened at the hands of black people. Now until you have lived there for 20 years and you have dealt with these and more things happening to you and your loved ones and you have no fear and no bitterness in your heart, don't you judge. I absolutely do not condone the racism of those women and the thousands like them. I find it abhorrent too, but I know there is a lot more to it.
no subject
Date: 2006-09-04 09:36 am (UTC)I just fin my Mum's journal a really interesting insight into South Africa through an outsider's eyes, if you see what i mean.
You should post this comment on her journal, i think she'd be interested in your point of view!
no subject
Date: 2006-09-04 10:14 am (UTC)Hubby's family are in SA, just outside of Jo'burg and I've lost count of the attacks and awful things they have been through. Rapes, stabbings, shootings, and all at the hands of blacks. I am thankful that this hasn't actually made them bitter, or racist - they still treat everyone as equals and actually find the ingrained behaviour of some of the whites quite abhorrent. They understand why, but they don't do it. Sis in law has been held at knifepoint so many times it's crazy! Found men in her house, had her kids shot at, cousins knifed... Dreadful.
As hubby says, once you have lived there for a long time, you do see things a whole lot differently.
It was interesting though, reading it from an 'outsider's' viewpoint. :)
no subject
Date: 2006-09-04 11:01 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-09-04 11:44 am (UTC)There has to be a way forward and a way to end the crime and violence, and it surely cannot be by the sort of carping that I was listening to.
I agree with you 100% and I feel very lucky that I have had the benefit of education and whatever else it was that I am don't feel the way that they do. Most South Africans I know will have had family members and friends murdered or attacked and they all live in constant fear of their lives and that of their family. That fear comes out in that horrible twisted arrogance and bravado you hear.
I think it is only right and I would hope that most people would show compassion towards black people and be interested in learning about the reasons behind the actions, but then the same should happen for the whites. No-one, whatever their colour, has escaped living in that country unscarred and undamaged.
What good is a beautiful country and huge houses and an apparent amazing standard of living if you're terrified that everytime your children leave the house, that could be the last time? The reason they may resent hearing your point of view is because you can leave if you want. The next time you hear these views, why not actually delve into them with the person a little bit deeper. They are not evil people, they are just scared, trapped and have problably been through some horrific stuff and all they have experienced from the rest of the world does is comdemnation. Of course that is going to lead to defiance and the prickly defensiveness.
but some South Africans seem to think it is exclusively their country's problem
South Africa has always had a problem with being isolated (politically, geographically, financially) so that people who live there do have a problem understanding that South Africa really is just another country. It has a bit of an identity crisis and is a bit like a toddler who just thinks 'Me, me, me!' all the time. It takes a while of living out of SA to get the knocked out, I think. I can remember growing up and being taught such a warped perception of what the world thought and it was a very odd experience to unlearn all of it.
Something I find really unpleasant as a South African living in the UK is how many English people will confide in me their racist views that they would never dare tell another English person. They expect me to agree though.
Anyway, excuse the long ramble. Apart from that, I hope you're having an awesome time in Cape Town! :-)
no subject
Date: 2006-09-04 03:52 pm (UTC)And that is kind of what I am saying. It is really hard to talk in depth with the people that hold those views, because many of them have never left SA, and they haven't unlearned their 'conditioning'like you have. Most of them are of an age when they had no information about the rest of the world as they grew up. I don't blame them for being uninformed, but I still don't get why they generalise so much about the 'blacks' when they trust them with their children and houses.
btw, I don't live in Cape Town, I live in Swellendam, which is an incredibly safe little rural town, and so we have not, touch wood, come across any violence or crime yet. Lots of alcoholism, though.