Street Harrasment

[emmelinemay]

Thanks to littleangel_103, who has brought my attention to this site, which, while being one of those horrible little frame set websites, seems to be about the exact same thing that's been getting me in a right rage lately - 'casual' street harassment.

Particularly interesting are the stories from women who have experienced it - it's the same story pretty much over and over.

It seems that somehow, a large proportion those of you with a Y chromosome seem to feel it's ok to shout and leer and approach women in the street. Well, IT'S NOT. And I'm not going to go on a big rant about why, as I've already done that once recently. As the week has gone on since I wrote that, I'm increasingly coming to the opinion that it doesn't actually matter why it is unacceptable and just plain wrong - what matters is that it is unacceptable and just plain wrong.



As bluekieran pointed out, the only way THEY (being, you know, society at large) are going to become aware of it is if it's on the front pages of the Sun (and its ilk), or covered as a storyline in a soap, or picked up by some celebrities. Of course, celebrities should know all about being hassled - but that's taken as part of the job description really. Who on earth could be a spokesperson for 'casual street harassment'?

There areone or two articles linked from the site about this issue, including this New Statesmen one.

So. Street Harassment. Is it just a 'fact of life'? 'boys will be boys'? Should women 'take it as a compliment?'

Or is it a serious indicator of how women are still viewed in society?

I've never been very interested in feminism before, or campaigning for anything really. I've got on with what I believe in in my own way, volunteering with kids, becoming vegan, trying to buy ethically. Little drops in the ocean. But this has really got me wound up, and the more I dig, the more wound up I get. I can't tackle this one in a little private way, I'll probably end either in a ditch having been attacked by a bloke I've retaliated to, or in jail, having been arrested for thumping a bloke I've retaliated to.

If more people were aware, and could accept that this is actually a very serious issue, would it make a difference? Would the 'good' Y chromosome owners take more care in how they approach women?? Would the public, witnessing a woman being the victim of street harassment, be more inclined to come to her support if the message were one of 'this is rude and ill mannered behaviour' rather than 'she's wearing a skirt, she asked for it'?

Harassment in the work place is increasingly recognised and legislated against, with high profile cases in the news on a regular basis. What about harassment, in public, by strangers? Is that somehow less hurtful, less affecting, less important than harassment in the workplace?

Why, with the enormous amount of (albeit anecdotal; and we already know that anecdote =/= singular of data) evidence out there that this is a huge, and totally endemic, problem with society, is it not MORE IMPORTANT?

Answers on a postcard.

If i start wearing dungarees, stop washing, and start singing protest songs in parks, someone please kill me. Especially if i start talking about burning my bra.

Comments

[glamgothruthy.livejournal.com]

anger is an energy - wrote the prophet john lydon. Use it and bring it to the worls attention and make it wrong. one person can make a difference

[littleangel-103.livejournal.com]

Trust me dungarees, smelliness and bra burning are not a prerequisite to feminism. Feminism is about realising women are treated differently and less well than men and wanting to do something about it.

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

there were an alarming amount of dungaree-wearing protest-singing hippy campaigner types at the green fair yesterday, which is where that was going really!

It's a good point though, which my flippancy highlights, that the image of 'people who fight for a cause' is not always terribly good. People make HUGE assumptions when you say 'i'm a feminist', 'i'm a vegan', 'and so on. Sometimes, unfortunately, like with a small minority at the fair yesterday, those stereotypes are real, and they probably do no favours to the cause by perpetuating those stereotypes.

Slide side-rant there!!

[juliet]

I like the Fawcett Society's "This is what a feminist looks like" campaign - http://www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/index.asp?PageID=394

Or is it a serious indicator of how women are still viewed in society?

Yes. It's an indication of the way in which women are viewed as sex objects/sexual commodities (as in, there for male enjoyment) in a way which men are not. Women not being valued as people/individuals, but only so far as they behave in ways which the man/men in question want them to.

The "cheer up darling it might never happen" or "give us a smile" from random blokes is the same thing on a less obviously offensive scale - the expectation that women should be smiley & decorative. Those random blokes wouldn't say the same thing to another man who was walking along looking grumpy/sad.

(as you may be able to tell I get rather aerated about this as well!)

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

i'm glad it's not just me! you need to come and help me over here then...

[juliet]

Have attempted to do so...

[ant-girl.livejournal.com]

Fawcett Society's "This is what a feminist looks like"

Hoorah, feminists look like Bill Bailey!

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

"Three women walk into a pub and say, `Hooray, we've colonised a male-dominated joke format'"

Bill Bailey ♥!!!!

[juliet]

I now have a weird amalgamation of Bill Bailey / Sophie Ellis Bextor / Hilary Benn in my head, for which I am choosing to blame you :-)

[ant-girl.livejournal.com]

I've been blamed for worse things. :-)

[littlemissk.livejournal.com]

Sorry to align a very important issue to a cheesy soap, but I was absolutley outraged when watching hollyoaks at the weekend, that when a girl went on a bad date with the football obsessed liverpudlian bloke, and when she left he called her a lesbian, basically because she doesn't fancy him. I think its crazy that a soap should make it seem as though this sort of language is acceptable. And I think it does stem from the same sort of culture that makes the sort of thing you're talking about be treated so casually.

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

sort of culture that makes the sort of thing you're talking about be treated so casually.

YES! Nail on head! That's just it - the issue is treated casually, as if women are making a lot of fuss about nothing, and we should accept it, or ignore it, or, as someone is arguing over hereeven accept part of the blame because some women behave badly in nightclubs o_O

Why SHOULD we accept it? Men wouldn't. 'Oh, he walked out on me because i was bing a bitch. he must be gay if he doesn't want to sleep with me'

Doesn't work, does it?

[ant-girl.livejournal.com]

Feminism is a good thing. Dungaree wearing not compulsorary. :-)

I've always thought of you a feminist, even if you've never really been interested in it. Your world view seems sufficiently well aligned to mine that I think you have feminist sympathies.

(Sorry if you view that comment as an insult!)

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

not at all :)

Feminism, i gather, like any group of people that care about something, have the batshit minority that taint the group as a whole.

People always eye me suspiciously when i say i'm vegan, as if i'm going to start telling them that the leather shoes they wear caused BABY COW MURDER and that they aren't allowed to cook in the same kitchen as me...

I just say 'i'm not one of those vegans...' and you can almost see the relief move across their face.

[ant-girl.livejournal.com]

I don't think I'm one of *those* feminists either, but then again, certain people would say I am for not wanting to change my name when I get married and insisting on being called Ms, etc. *shrug*

Mind you, I'm sure there are those who might say you are, for not taking the unwanted attention as a compliment. (Like you say, some people actually *like* it...)

People are just silly sometimes.

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

i don't think anyone likes that sort of attention. Anyone that does must have serious self esteem issues!!

[ant-girl.livejournal.com]

Well, if it wasn't you that said it, someone else somewhere else did. Sorry for the mis-attribution.

And I'm afraid some people *do* like it... My sister used to deliberately dress in short skirts and shorts to walk home from school so that people would wolf whistle at her. I guess that's the mark of an immature school girl, and I'm sure she wouldn't feel that way now, but I've certainly heard *women* expressing the idea that "you shouldn't complain, it's a compliment"... :-/

[ant-girl.livejournal.com]

By the way, on re-reading this, I'm worried it sounds a bit stroppy -- it wasn't meant to be!

(Way to go on the typo, the first time!)

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

that's the best typo EVA!!

"sorry if i was stroppy, I MEANT IT"

:D

[ant-girl.livejournal.com]

*hides at the bottom of very deep hole*

[redlaurie.livejournal.com]

I've just spent quite a bit of time reading the stories section and I feel sick in my guts. I find I get harrassed much less frequently since I moved to London, but it reminded me of what a living hell being out in public has been since I turned 14. I have been consistently whistled at, followed by men in cars, had my butt grabbed twice, my crotch once, inner thigh once, stalked,offered cash for sex on the street, called every name in the book for refusing, chased, and the inane, rude and threatening comments are countless. I've felt like my personal safety and freedom got taken away. I've responded in different ways to the touchers- I've punched, smacked, pushed and even grabbed a guy by the throat once. I don't want to be violent, but I respect myself and I can't even describe how horrible I've felt when I had to let someone get away with doing something like that to me. I told a cop I used to know about the stalker, and he was arrested eventually. He had prior stalking convictions. For awhile I carried a knife, I had a hammer under my car seat, I used to wear a walkman all the time to help me block them out. I stopped dressing up wearing stilletos years ago 'cause I can't run or fight in them. I actually feel a need to say that I was more attractive when I was younger- tall, natural blonde, decent figure, etc., but my appearance isn't really the issue and nor is my clothing. The issue is this is socially acceptable sexual harrassment and it's not our fault- why is it we seem to have no protection? Why doesn't that guy's mate sort him out? Is silence compliance?
Oh yes, this IS a serious problem for women. There doesn't seem to be a solution.

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

*applause*

The more i think about it, the more times i remember it happening, and i've done nothing more than just chalked it up to men being fuckers, and not done anything about it.

In Stratford Mall shopping centre, i was on my way out between sainsuries and the market stall when i guy actually grabbed my crotch. I was SO stunned i didn't react at first, i looked round and there was this guy, leering at me and winking. I felt sick and then instinct took over and my arm swung round to hit him on the head - not realising i had in that hand a bag with a brand new pair of new rocks in it. He was knocked to the floor, and security rushed in and nabbed me, he picked himself up and legged it.

I had to explain, through the tears, what happened, while he got away, and some woman came rushing up with her kids screaming at me 'why you hit him for? what he do? and seemed to have been under the impression he was my boyfriend (WTF?) and i'd abused him in public! The security guards were quite nie about it, but did seem to think it was pretty funny. I went home, changed, and came out again as i was going out to some club, and on my way to the station i got accosted again by two blokes who asked 'for a quick feel'. When i ignored, they asked again. 'Go on, g'is a feel. whassamater, is you a lesbian?'

I arrived at the club in tears angrily asking if i was wearing a flag, to be told by some male friends i should 'take it as a compliment' and 'you have to admit, your skirt is quite short and you do have nice boobs'

So what. I'm to wear no makeup, only trousers and have a boob reduction. Then it will stop?

I thought about adding some of my stories to the site, but the more i think about it, the more times o remember where i wish i'd fucking punched the bastard, and it's making me FULL of rage!!

[redlaurie.livejournal.com]

Lol- I would've loved to see that! And these freaky perverts are so astonished when you refuse and fight back- that really gets me! Public gropers are such pathetic deluded people..
I can't believe your mates tried to put a positive spin on that. I don't understand it at all. I think I would've lost it. Then again, I remember trying to convince my boyfriend in Baltimore that I was being harrassed so frequently I didn't want to go out by myself after awhile- he thought I was exaggerating until one day we were walking somewhere but he was several paces behind me (don't remember why) and a guy I passed started making loud and very disgusting comments and requests. I shouted at him,he shouted back, but when my boyfriend caught up and got in his face- he backed down straight away. And apologised. To my boyfriend. It gave me the message I was fair game if not obvious *property* of another man. The boyfriend still really didn't get some of the important reasons why I was so upset- I guess most guys just don't have this experience?
When I think about these things I am so enraged.

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure guys really can understand the hassle we get - women just don't treat men like that.

I've had times when thing have happened and a boyfriend has been there, and it's ba similar experience as yours. I had an argument once with a boyfriend when a bloke grabbed my arse as we were getting on a bus, and boyfriend wanted to lamp the fucker, but i wasn't sure who it was. I tried to explain to him it happens all the time, but he was furious. I think there was an element of 'mine, don't you fucking touch', but now i look back, he was right in a way. My passivity, and feat of retaliation, meant that i wouldn't stand up to the guy that did it, so he got away.

Grrr!!

We should stop now before we get too cross!!

[redlaurie.livejournal.com]

You're probably right! Tell ya what- I do actually feel better than when I first started thinking about this earlier today. I can see that I/we *are* pretty damn empowered and strong and that's a great thing!

[jimthegoth.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure guys really can understand the hassle we get - women just don't treat men like that.

Absolute bollocks that I'm afraid.

I've been treated like that and worse by women, in my case everytime I whinged about it I got 'You are a bloke you should be happy about it' This was from BOTH men and women.

Pissed me off no end.

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

you've experienced the 'take it as a compliment' irritation, yes, but not the constant day to day harassment that women get. AJ has said something quite interesting in his comment below about the difference he experiences now when he goes out, as compared to before.

I do agree that harassment is harassment, whether it's male on female, female on male, whatever, and street harassment ought to be taken more seriously than it is as a social issue. And I really beleive that if the problem was the other way round, women on men, there'd be a lot more fuss about it.

I'm having to admit, sadly, that it really does seem to be a feminist issue, to do with objectifcation. Women are obectified more than men, so get more harassment. How you felt when those women hassled you - like an 'object' - is how women are treated every day.

[redlaurie.livejournal.com]

P.S.-
Soz- took me so long to write the above I see that I am slightly off topic now!
Boy am I wound up.

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

you're not off topic at all! rant away!!

[http://users.livejournal.com/_yungfuktoi_/]

There is a difference between free speech and harrassment, and this is what needs to be LEGISLATED (yes, quote me). I would love to see some polls/figures on the number of women who remain indoors, take the long way, are forced to get cabs, etc because of fear of harrassment.

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

workplace harassment is huge atm, load of workplaces (mine included) doing compulsory training on diversity and consideration in the work place to avoid harassment cases.

In the workplace, if you *feel* harassed you've *been* harassed; regardless of intent of the harassing party.

But it's still ok out there on the streets, somehow.

[redlaurie.livejournal.com]

I suppose that is because on the street no-one is responsible particularly to deal with these things, and people otherwise seem to just brush it under the carpet. I've even had conversations with women I knew who tried to convince me that I shouldn't be so angry, that it's a natural part of life, that I need to learn some new tactics like flirting back as a way of getting the upper hand! I usually consider most things that are said to me, but no- I'm not cool with it and I'm not having it.

[mindygoth.livejournal.com]

And the good Y chromosome owners don't even realise how often it happens. I remember waiting to get on the tube with a co-worker (male - responsible Y-chromosome owner) and as one bloke got off and I got on, he stared straight at my tits for an obvious duration. My co-worker said "OMG did you see that? That bloke just stared straight at your tits!" - to which I replied "Yeah, happens all the time..." - Co-worker couldn't quite believe it.

Okay it's a completely minor thing compared to some of what you guys describe - but it was just interesting my co-worker had no idea that "most blokes" were like that. Personally I think the poor love was just sheltered ;p

[nyarbaggytep.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. My b/f, lovely in many ways, has had his arse grabbed twice in his life. Once in a gay bar, and once by a woman at an LRP event. He was outraged by it. I explained to him how often that had happened to me. He went very quiet and thought about it a lot. I think most blokes just aren't aware of what it's actually like walking around female.

I've had interesting conversations with transexual or transvestite people too about how differently they get treated. Some mtf trans people I've spoken with have been really shocked by how it actually feels to be treated like an object by random strangers.

[silveraj.livejournal.com]

I'm a female to male transsexual and when I go out now passing 100% as male, the harassment 'silence' is almost deafening.

I'm completely left alone by 'those sorts of' men, verbally and physically. Both in terms of my attractive face/body (now without makeup/tight clothes) and also my extreme body mods. Like it's perfectly acceptable for a guy to look like this, but it can't go uncommented on when I'm read as a girl.

It makes an enormous difference, it's an amazing relief, and only now do I realise exactly what women really go through on a daily basis compared to men.

Emmie, you've made me appreciate it a whole lot more.
xxx

[http://users.livejournal.com/_yungfuktoi_/]

There's no words to describe the security and peace I felt the first time I ventured out as a guy for the first time. It's like wearing an invisible cloak. No one pays you any mind and you can get on with things without quickening your pace, having to hail a cab, cross the street to avoid a gang of lads, etc. That's why something needs to be done about this so, so badly. How can something that directly affects half the population in a negative and harmful way NOT be addressed?

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

how to avoid harassment = be a man!

I guess you understand better than the other men commenting here saying 'we get hassle too' as you've been on both sides as a direct witness, and can categorically state that the shit men get and the shit women get is not the same thing. Men might get the odd yell or hassle late at night if they're dressed up, or in a club. But women are objectified as a matter of course.

Emmie, you've made me appreciate it a whole lot more.

YAY emmie did a good thing :D

But women are objectified as a matter of course.

[nyarbaggytep.livejournal.com]

Absolutely so.

YAY emmie did a good thing :D
I think so too.

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

yeah - i think that may be why so many of our male friends don't quite get why we make 'a fuss' about it - they really dont' realise how often it happens. We're almost desensitised to it now!

[kathbad]

I do not get this kind of attention, I get very polite approaches from be-suited men. Normally very nice about polite decline-ation (what is the word I am looking for?)

I wonder if this is because I do not conform to the "accepted" female form?

This is a tough one, because the last thing I am trying to suggest is that you get the attention for conforming (in whatever way) - that is not what I mean, and does not make it any more acceptable. It is never acceptable in any shape or form.

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

i would mind co much if they were polite and genuine about it. But it's just:

them: WOOOARR! ORITE DARlN YA WANT IT YEH BB
me: no
them: YOU MUST BE A DIRTY SLUT LESBIAN CRACKWHORE BITCH IF YOU DON'T WANT MY STALLIONLIKE COCK

[silveraj.livejournal.com]

We should start a service which gets big strong homosexual men, who can look after themselves in a fight, to stalk men who harass you girls.

The gay men can make suggestive comments and grab the harassers' arses, or leer at their crotches, or stand much too close to them on the bus.
I'll film it. We'll make a site.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_yungfuktoi_/]

I'm in.

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

i think that's an AWESOME idea!!

[redshira.livejournal.com]

That is the best idea ever.
Dude, you are ace. Also, I didn't get round to thanking you for your lovely comment over on Foxy's LJ. So, er, thank you :)

[ewtikins.livejournal.com]

Added you; don't particularly mind whether you add me back at this point, I just think you write interesting posts.