Tortured artist or Tortured by fame?

[emmelinemay]

Last week I mentioned my pondering on the paths of destruction so many artists seem to go down, and wondered whether they were damaged because they were famous and, or famous because they were damaged.

Synchronicity calling. Why rock and roll stars die young.

It's been proved by SCIENCE, people. And Science is neva rong. Rite?

Comments

[gaius-octavian.livejournal.com]

With a sample that size (considering how many musicians there are) you could "prove" anything you wanted. How were they chosen? 'Cos for every Amy Winehouse there are dozens of KT Tunstall/Joss Stone/Dido/Chantal whatshername/etc etc who have absolutely no problems at all. Amy Winehouse and Pete Doherty are famous because their behavior is unusual even among "stars".

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

I can't say I entirely agree with the survey.

I still think there is something within many talented people, or people that seek fame, which is a little bit broken in the first place, which is just amplified when they achieve that fame. Like Lyssa said in my last post, it is often the 'inner demons' which are the source of such talent and creativity.

Then you have people like Britney, who aren't particularly talented, but do seek fame and the limelight and the glitter, and then burn out spectacularly. Does she burn because of the fame, or did she seek the fame because of it?

I don't think that's something 'science' can answer, because it's more about what's within than something measurable.

Amy Winehouse and Pete Doherty aren't unusual, looking back over the history of music, and art, and literature. They are repeating a pattern that has been seen over and over, since 'art' began. They aren't even the only ones with problems now, they just are more famous and sell more papers.

David Bowie said in an interview once that he doesn't remember making many of his videos, he was so out of it for most of the 80s. Jason Donovan was on massive amounts of coke, for pretty much every kids TV show he did.

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

deleted so the conversation made sense...

There are hundreds of examples - Geri Halliwell (and all of the spice girls, really) are interesting examples. Perhaps not talented, but fame hungry, for sure. Why? What makes someone *crave* fame? I asked that question in my last entry.

Maybe people who are more likely to walk that path seek out fame, as a way to fill whatever is lacking inside.

Maybe when they achive fame, and it doesn't make them happy, maybe that's when they fall apart.

Robbie Williams - drug problems. Liam Gallagher, drug and alcohol problems.

Pete and Amy are not isolated incidents by any means, just better publicised, as they don't hide it.

[miss-soap.livejournal.com]

Maybe when they achive fame, and it doesn't make them happy, maybe that's when they fall apart.

I think that's a valid point actually. Many people who have a self-destructive bent crave love and approval, because they don't love themselves, and fame/fortune would seem to be the answer to it.

However their issues are entirely internal so fame/fortune will only serve to amplify those problems, rather than fixing them. The individual often can't/won't address their inner demons so ends up back on the road to self-destruction, only this time with a fortune to help them achieve it and fame enough that the media will be all too happy to push them along.

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

I know that anecdote =/= the singular of data, but my theory is sort of based on the way i felt as my time in interlock drew to an end. Ever since i was a little girl (troubled family life...) i wanted to be famous. As Interlock got more well known, and I got worse mentally, and then subsequently better, I came to the realisation that my desire to be fame was a lot more to do with my state of mind, my internal issues, my inner demons, my need to be accepted and loved, my need to stick in in the eye of those that bullied me at school.

As i got better, i managed to pull myself off that path of destruction, and funnily enough, the desire to be 'famous' was replaced with a desire to be 'happy'.

I hated being recognised by people i didn't know, I hated my name being mis-spelt in magazines. I hated people thinking they knew me because they'd read an interview, seen me on stage. I *hated* it. One someone i didn't know came up to me in a club, and they gave me a drink, and it was my 'drink of chouce' at the time. I had a panic attack over that. Odd, isn't it?

I has a similar thing when I lost a lot of weight. I'd always believed 'when I'm thin, I'll be happy'. I got thin. I wasn't happy. My whole world view crumbles, and the world falls over. That was the time i can pinpoint as when my depressive tendencies spiralled down into full on depression.

[medusa-nw.livejournal.com]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is/was 'Interlock'?

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

a band i used to be in :)

[medusa-nw.livejournal.com]

Never heard the name before... *is ignorant*
Industrial music?

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

industrial death metal sort of thing. They're really very good, if you like that sort of music! Very good live. Loads of energy.

I changed a lot as a person, and musically, and I had a lot of problems with my throat, and in the end I wasn't able to commit to them, personally or musically, as much as I should have, or as they needed.

Good old musical differences :)

[gaius-octavian.livejournal.com]

:-) I thought I ought to correct that before Lyssa saw it!

There are people who are actually driven by their art who become famous almost incidentally, as a side effect of many people liking their work and wanting to know who they are so they can find more of it. The media leaves these people alone to get on with it. It's generally only the ones who want to take a shortcut to fame who get in trouble, and then it becomes a vicious circle, the more attention they get...

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

But Neither Amy, nor Pete, nor Elvis, Kurt Cobain, Jim Morrisson, the list goes on, took that 'shortcut'.

They were talented. They worked hard. They achieved fame through their art. THEN they fell apart.

Just because YOU didn't know who Amy Winehouse or The Libertines were before you heard about drug problems, doesn't mean they weren't famous.

[miss-soap.livejournal.com]

And again for the cheap seats; Amy Winehouse is famous for her music. She's in the papers for her behaviour.

Not sure how many times and on how many journals I have to say this for it to get through.

If she were just a drunk junkie, she wouldn't be in the papers.

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

Pete Doherty, too, up to a point. The Libertines were pretty big, in indie terms, and the split and subsequent rising of Dirty Pretty Things and Babyshambles was pretty big news.

The drug problems were a big reason for the split in the Libertines, but they were big, and not famous for PD's issues. They were famous because they were a bloody good band.

With both Amy and Pete, their drug problems have overtaken who they are and what they achieved, to the extent that people not in to that music, (or Guy...) don't realise that they had a life and a talent and a fame outside of that.

FWIW, Dirty Pretty Things are excellent, Babyshambles are crap. Mainly because DPT manage to turn up to gigs, record good sings and play well...

[yaruar.livejournal.com]

i disagree slightly, the libertines got all their major press activity due to PD and his breakdown, jail sentence and expulsion from the band. I only really knew then because they stole the name of my old band :)

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

They were actually talented and a good band though, as are DPT.

Otherwise, they'd have faded into obscurity after PD left.

Dirty Pretty Things are probably a more famous *band*, but i guess not so many people would be able to name PD's band.

[yaruar.livejournal.com]

surely that should be "Science is neva rong, ya get me"

i don't even think it's a tortured artist thing, i think there is an acceptance of sex drugs and rock and roll, especially with young people suddenly getting a lot of attention, money and opportunities which they aren't mature enough to handle.

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

But so many artists, writers and other creative types go that way as well, right back through history. It's not a modern phenomena, although perhaps the press attention is.

[mark13.livejournal.com]

I read about that in the Metro the other day, where it mentioned Winehouse and Doherty, and then reeled off a list of other rock stars who were killed by drugs - Joplin, Hendrix, Cobain.

Err, except Cobain wasn't killed by drugs - he was killed by a faceful of 12-gauge, the drugs were just symptomatic.

The high death toll has never been any surprise - take a group of people who are emotionally sensitive enough to create art that people can relate to, give them vast amounts of money and pampering, absolve them of any responsibility for their actions, legal or otherwise,then alternately laud them and hound them for their self-destructive lifestyle, until they self-destruct through overindulgence or suicide.

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

Drugs, suicide, it's all part of the same self-destructive streak. They've also focussed very much on those that died, where as those that lived through it are just as interesting - David Bowie's doing pretty well for himself still, despite excesses at the height of his fame.

I think there are two groups of self-destruction to fame routes - there's the one you mention, people who are damaged enough to create art (be it literature, music, whatever) whose inner demons ultimately rip them apart. How many unknown artists destroyed themselves without the benefit of tabloid journalists hanging outside their house, and entourages only too happy to give them free drink and drugs?

I think there is also the less talented people that crave fame. Craving 'fame' as an end in itself is pretty weird, really, when you think about it. Why would someone crave fame? SO many of these people, craving fame, when they get it, it damages them so much more (see Britney, Robbie Williams, most of the Spice Girls most winners of any reality TV show, - not saying they *aren't* talented - but they're certianly not 'great talents' compared to others). Perhaps when they get it, they find, suddenly and unexpectedly, they still aren't happy. And their world falls apart.

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

I speak here as someone that did once crave fame, and wanted nothing more out of life than to 'be famous'...

[mark13.livejournal.com]

IIRC, you did actually try to become so through talent and hard work rather than just because you felt you should be. :)

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

I did seriously consider auditioning for Big Brother though.

Now, the thought fills me with utter dread.

[mark13.livejournal.com]

Hm, I'm not sure drugs and suicide are always part of the same streak - you can be down self-destructive, i.e. Cobain, Ian Curtis, which often involves drugs, and you can be up self-destructive, where you're not depressed or trying to get away from yourself, you just don't know when to stop.

I'd say plenty of unknown artists destroyed themselves without media help - the self-awareness that leads to great art often leads to self-loathing.

I'm not so sure exactly how much fame affects fame seekers as opposed to the genuinely talented. Cobain despised his fame, and that contributed to his suicide as much as anything else did, but I'm a lot less convinced by the meltdowns that Robbie, Britney, et al have.

Yes, they are self-destructive behaviours, but they strike me as somewhat calculatedly attention-seeking behaviours - people desperate to keep in the public eye, and prepared to go to any lengths to do so.

As far as I know, the list of famous-for-being-famous people who have actually killed themselves young through drugs and/or suicide is miniscule in comparison to the number of genuinely talented people who have done so. I just don't think they have the imagination or ability to reach the same depths of despair that would drive them to do so.

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

Drugs and suicide aren't always, not, but in Kurt's case they were, and they are often linked.

In terms of fame-seeking, i look at it more from that angle that anyone that seeks 'fame' for no other reason than to be 'famous' must be missing something. To get what you want, and then find out it hasn't 'fixed' whatever it was that was missing can totally destroy you. I think that's a different thing entirely from the tortured artist, but they both ultimately are damaged *before* they are famous.

I think the whole 'killing themselves' thing is not really part of the point - as you say, you can be self destructive without dying from it (again, speaking from experience), so just lookign atth enumber of famous people who 'killed themselves' wasn't really my point.

Apart from various semantics issues here, i think we probably agree on most of it :)

I did a rant!

[jaketherat.livejournal.com]

I started replying, as I've been in a state of high dudgen about this story since I read it yesterday, but it all got a bit ranty and long so I made a post out of it here if anyone's interested.

Re: I did a rant!

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

it's a very good rant :)

You made some really interesting points i'm still pondering on!

Your post for some reason think of how cross i was when that whole Kate Moss thing happened, all the media and fashion industry dropping her, and then re-embracing her after her 'rehabilitation'. It's all such hypocritical bollocks! If most of the fashion industry and journalist industry aren't all equally into coke, i'm a monkey's bum.