Street Harassment

[emmelinemay]

It's still happening, but as I now have Obvious Headphones, I can pretend it isn't happening, and ignore it most of the time.

Here's what I wrote last year
(link is to the tagged entries, so scroll down past this one!)

Someone on 2wheelsbetter linked me to an article I thought fit quite well along with those rants, so those of you that were interested in those (which was broadly split between the women that understood, and the men that got offended and said BUT I'M NOT LIKE THAT to which I'd reply read this)

"Why do you think it's OK to harass women?" I said calmly, loudly. The man froze, then a look of fear washed over his features. He shrank like a worm. "What?" he snivelled, his eyes sliding to the floor. "I didn't say anything bad ..."

"It doesn't matter what you said, I didn't say that you could speak to me. It's not OK to whisper in a woman's ear when she's going about her business.


There are also some 'but WOMEN DO IT TOO' and yes, but 'I'M NOT LIKE THAT' comments to the article there too. I sincerely hope I don't have to explain to anyone reading why this makes me cross.

from one of the comments:
It would be great if, instead of claiming we're making a fuss about nothing, the decent men out there accepted that this *is* a problem for a lot of women and make it clear when they see it happening that they don't think harassing women is funny or acceptable.

Comments

[stylishbastard.livejournal.com]

I don't like the idea that someone who feels maligned or under-privileged is allowed to say 'ah..you're privileged..you don't get it, and therefore are not a nice person until you agree with me, at which point I acknowledge you 'get it' and we all continue on our merry way'.

Things are so much more nuanced and contextual than anyone seems to want to accept..and it seems to me that often the people most resistent to that notion are those who like to think of themselves as special, maligned, alternative, insightful, sensitve, 4real or under-privileged. Not specifically aimed at you, but I do think there is an egotism of oppression , particularly among those who are privileged enough to be educated about these arguments and quite like the idea of being bolshie outsiders.

And now I even feel like I ought to qualify these statements (which I think are perfectly defensible in and of themselves) by saying that I do know what it is like to have ongoing experience of street harassment among other things.

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

are you saying you disagree with the notion of male privilege?

Just asking.

[stylishbastard.livejournal.com]

Well..I disagree with the notion that male privilege is present in all societies and contexts at all times, and as such trumps all other kinds of privilege. I actually think the awful problem of sexual harassment results more from lack of privilege in some areas, and something of a crisis in masculinity itself.

I think terms like 'male privilege' can be very unhelpful in that they mask other factors that feed into the feelings that encourage men to exercise power in such an unsavoury way...perhaps one of the few ways they can. That in no way excuses what goes on...and I am certainly not saying anyone is asking to be harassed. What I am saying is that I think everyone is best served by looking not at privilege, but in inequality.

I think inequality is a concept people can relate to more easily than privilege. The lady who was whispered to in the supermarket was in an unequal position..being caught by surprise and referred to in an overly familiar way by someone who was in all liklihood stronger than her. That specific, localised inequality is more meaningful to me than the abstract, ongoing privilege that may or may not be enjoyed by her assaillant.

I don't disagree that a lot of horrible things go on, but I don't think over-intellectualising it is a useful response. Some people behave in a cunty fashion and that is better dealt with at the point of contact where possible, and in no uncertain terms when analysing the issue.

[littleangel-103.livejournal.com]

Whilst some of your argument makes sense - for example that privileges and oppressions are multiple, linked and contextual - sadly, for me, a lot of this doesn't.

Lets start with the fact that as a whole society predicates one set of social divisions on perceived gender. As a whole, ignoring other divisions, men have more power than women. That is power both in institutional and personal terms. They have the power to create and control institutions, to make and enforce norms and the coercive power needed for widespread enforcement. Of course men use this power against other men too, but it is also used against women. Street harassment is one example of both coercive and institutionalised power use. Women are taught that we are meant to be flattered by this intrusion, and often when you pick men up on it, they rely on this reinforcing norm as their excuse (as in "it was only a bloody compliment"). Add to this that such intrusions are not legally prohibited except in specific circumstances (such as the workplace) and even in thos examples it is often difficult to get complaints taken seriously or acted upon.

To say that there are individual loci of power does not diminish or replace that there are also structural loci of power too. We are entirely enmeshed in both in our everyday lives.

I don't like the idea that someone who feels maligned or under-privileged is allowed to say 'ah..you're privileged..you don't get it, and therefore are not a nice person until you agree with me, at which point I acknowledge you 'get it' and we all continue on our merry way'.

I would agree that for social movements as a whole, as Foucault pointed out with sexual rights campaigners, there is a trend towards declaring oneself a hero in the face of oppression, that doesn't mean the oppression doesn't exist in the first place.

Now to a bit of critique:
> Not specifically aimed at you, but I do think there is an egotism of
> oppression , particularly among those who are privileged enough to be
> educated about these arguments and quite like the idea of being bolshie > outsiders.

You argument surely presupposes here that the less educated wouldn't complain about the same things. But this is so vastly untrue on a local and global scale where women are complaining about the same issues. Street harassment is outlawed in some south-eastern asian countries and in some states in the US, for example, because the women's caucus has had some influence. Whether or not women are "educated" (in a formal sense) they tend to know justice from injustice and are able to compare their experience with that of, for example, men. Less educated women are not insensible to the oppressive and exploitative behaviours they face, indeed they are more often acutely aware of it. It is often groups of "less educated" women who make the first political moves against such oppressions, as in the Dalit Gulabi Gang in northern India at the moment.

I am sure it wasn't an implication you meant to make but it is clearly there. I would say we have to be careful, as people who are globally privileged, to ensure that we don't assume some kind of false idyll about those others who lack the same privilege. Street harassment is not just a problem in the developed world, but also in the developing world. And you can't just box it off as different to rape, sexual abuse and domestic violence. There are intrinsic links between the misogynistic assumptions of perpetrators of all of these who deem women to be unworthy of the same rights that they, themselves enjoy. Whether they occupy positions of privilege or not that still remains (for example a justification which was often made about domestic violence was that it was an outpouring of the frustration of the poor in an explotative capitalist system).

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

littleangel_103, meet gurlesque. gurlesque, meet littleangel_103.

I think you'd get on rather well.

That was an AWESOME comment by the way. It's great to see debate when someone actually knows what they are talking about :)

[stylishbastard.livejournal.com]

Bloody hell, you're verbose!

You couch all this very much in a Men Versus Women way which I'm not really keen on. Yes, most institutions continue to be ones that service traditionally male ways of being and doing. But where does this power come from? Women make up 50% of society. This state of affairs has been authored with explicit or tacit female approval. Just as men can use institutional power against other men, women have proven to be very adept at supporting these structures and shitting on their own sex.

You argument surely presupposes here that the less educated wouldn't complain about the same things. But this is so vastly untrue on a local and global scale where women are complaining about the same issues.

That's a bit of a leap. I was specifically referring to the UK context in my posts on this, although there are structural parallels elsewhere. I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. I'm not being cheeky here..I'm just back from a holiday and I am knackered :)

It seems like you're suggesting that I think uneducated (inevitably foreign?!) women are not capable of mobilising around these issues, or are not subject to them. I am not. However, I am a bit skeptical about the idea of a global sisterhood. I think it is best to focus on the specific contexts that cause problems. I don't think the situation of women in e.g Russia or Nepal (both countries in which I have some degree of learningz on the subject of women's rights) are comparable to that which you might say is typical of the UK. In fact, as I've said in other comments, I think it is crucial to burrow further in exploring the whys and wherefores of such crimes, as I believe motivations and justifications (and thus causes) differ significantly in many cases, even if the negative impact on the victim is the same.

I really think you need to consider the role of women in perpetuating systems where their peers can be abuses so easily. It doesn't matter if they are co-opted into institutional oppressionz by virtue of growing up in the system. The same holds true for men. Personally I think everyone suffers from misogyny on some level, even if that is invisible to the most ardent offenders.

Anyway..I apologise if I seem a bit scatterbrained. :)

[sera-squeak.livejournal.com]

Chick, your "here's what I wrote" link comes to this post. Please fix for I would like to read...

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

It's a link to the tagged entries! Scroll down!

[sera-squeak.livejournal.com]

Aha - minor stupid at this point in the day.

[gothicfreakgrrl.livejournal.com]

On Friday night at KoRn, when I was in the mosh-pit, I was "casually groped" no less than THREE times. One guy grabbed my bum, so I hit him around the head (we were in a mosh pit, I could get away with it). One dragged his hand across my stomach, I lost him in the crowd.
Then, when I was up on Matt's shoulders, some twat grabbed my bum again. Matt and I turned as one to shout, but were faced with shouting a two scared looking guys trying to implicate the other. I was up on my boyfriend's shoulders for goodness sake - what logiv allows anyone to think that is an appropriate time to be touching someone's arse!?!
(Not that there ever really IS an appropriate time to touch someone's arse).
It is SO frustrating to me to think that guys will happily treat me as "one of them" in a mosh pit, and yet some of them still think it is a great opportunity to cop a feel.

[redlaurie.livejournal.com]

That is indeed frustrating! A couple of months ago (coincidentally the same night as the Reclaim the Streets for women), I was frontally groped(in the bathing suit area!) at an anarcho/peace punk gig of all places- I couldn't flippin' believe it!

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

WTF?

I guess it goes to show, there are wankers in every subculture!

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

that guys will happily treat me as "one of them" in a mosh pit, and yet some of them still think it is a great opportunity to cop a feel.


Such a good point. The same with men who get aggressive when you turn away their, for want of a better word, 'advances'. You're a woman then up tot he point when you turn them down, and then you're not, and it's ok to intimidate and threaten you.

[vulgarcriminal.livejournal.com]

That happened to me at a NIN concert years ago. I clocked the guy. He was thrown out of the pit. All was well. ;)

[medusa-nw.livejournal.com]

Hah, me too! NIN at the Brixton Academy. It was witnessed, unbeknown to me, by a male friend of mine. He later told me I was terrifying when I was angry. ;-) But he totally agreed with me punching him.

[medusa-nw.livejournal.com]

Urgh, it makes me even more angry that there are women saying 'really, I don't know why she's saying that, it never happens to me!' Well, lucky you, I don't know where you live, but I don't think I know a single woman it's not happened to! Just because it doesn't happen to you doesn't mean we're all making it up!

Groping doesn't happen to me a lot, thank god. And when it has, the guy has had a response ranging from me shouting at them, to a slap, a punch, or a rucksack in their face. Harsh? Maybe. But I didn't ask them to touch me, and that's what happens when you do things to me without my permission.

As for the comments, I'm not even going to go into that, it happens weekly. And it's not big and not clever. It's ridiculous, and sometimes intimidating. And I say that as a very self-confident, reasonably strong, above average-height woman.

[redlaurie.livejournal.com]

Ditto on all three points.

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

Just because it doesn't happen to you doesn't mean we're all making it up!

That really annoys me too.

It's crazy, isn't it? People have told me before that I ought to walk more assertively, (isn't that kind of saying it's my fault? wft?) - but I walk fast, confidently and with my head up. I don't 'ask' for ot or 'draw' it.

The only way anything will ever get done about this is if people can accept that this is something MEN do TO women, and not something women 'bring on themselves'.

[medusa-nw.livejournal.com]

Yeah, they should all be made to watch 'The Accused' again to be reminded it's always the fault of the aggressor, not the victim.

[illusivevenstar.livejournal.com]

its never happened to me, however, i believe it has happened to other women. I am thankful that I havent experienced it!

[medusa-nw.livejournal.com]

You're very lucky, I hope it stays that way!

[nyarbaggytep.livejournal.com]

My partner (male) got his arse grabbed once on a night out. He was furious, and then astounded by my response when I told him how often that had happened to me.
I tend to shout "OI!" really loudly, if I'm on the ball, sometimes I don't react in time.

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

I've had guys say 'yeah, well, WOMEN TO IT TOO' and I'm like in clubs maybe. But how many times has a man walked down the steet and been yelled at (or worse, grabbed) by women in cars or vans? How many times does a woman make a comment about a man's chest or arse or facial expression even as he happens to be walking past, minding his own business?

I think a lot of men either don't believe, or don't realise, that for many women this is a *weekly* occurrence, not every now and then in a club or at a bus stop on the way home after a nightclub when everyone it a bit lary.

It's on the way to work, going around sainsburies, just daily every day things.

Mark was really shocked when he realised how often it happened to me. Because, funnily enough, it never happens when he's around. Amazing, how being in the presence of a 6'2" chap stops the comments, isn't it?

[icecoldinalex.livejournal.com]

man, it's so easy to be a polite, nice and moral person - and fellas, if you want to get close to ladies, they tend to like you better if you are polite and nice, y'know? why are people so weird?

i have never had a male friend who would do anything like this, even when hammered. It's so ingrained that it is wrong, I can't understand why anyone in 2008 would think it was ok...

weird weird weird. mantraps are the answer, i reckon.

[emmelinemay.livejournal.com]

I can't understand why anyone in 2008 would think it was ok

That's because you are a Decent Bloke.

I don't get it either. What sort of asolute MORON thinks it's ok to go an invade someone else's personal space just becasue they're female?

The thing that always gets me about the majortiy of the encouters is that the guy always seems to think that his approach will be welcomed, that the girl should be flattered, and they rarely understand why the girl is intimidated or pissed off or upset - and then when they are rebuffed, they get defensive, and aggressive.

It's so weird. And depressing, that whenever I post about it, I get comments from women saying it happens to them all the time.